My good friend Priya (Partial View) and I recently began talking about celebrities and how much certain people seem to worship them. By “certain people,” I mean women, especially married women. And by “worship,” I mean fantasizing about having real romantic relationships with male actors, musicians, and athletes: the so-called sex symbols.
As we talked about this topic, I began to realize that we were slipping into generalizations, using a broad brush to describe behaviors and intentions. Priya and I had often criticized such thinking as lazy and unproductive, but here it seemed unavoidable for some reason. While some of my comments about women were meant to irritate only Priya, I’m concerned that in their published form, those same comments may be taken the wrong way, and could irritate almost everyone. I suspect that was Priya’s sinister goal all along.
Nevertheless, here is our dialogue, pieced together from three or four conversations that took place over several weeks.
MBI: You seem to be in a good mood.
PV: I am. I just watched X-Men.
MBI: Am I the only person in the world who doesn’t know what X-Men is about?
PV: Yes, I think you are. It’s about mutant saviours. Fighting mutant villains.
MBI: It sounds very mutant.
PV: I am in love with Hugh Jackman.
MBI: This is going to take us into a long discussion that you probably don’t want to have with me.
PV: Oh? Why?
MBI: “I am in love with Hugh Jackman.” I hear women saying this kind of thing all the time. Do you mean it literally?
PV: No. It’s a clever way of showing attraction. It may be physical, or about some trait the person has. Hugh Jackman in the movie Wolverine shows the kind of qualities I admire. And he is good to look at. So, I say that I am in love with him. But it would be another thing if a man were to say “I am in love with Sophia Loren.” His woman would not put up with it.
MBI: I never hear men making these comments, but I hear women say them right in front of their husbands. Do you do that?
PV: Sometimes. I just told my husband an hour back that Jackman reminds me of him. I think it made him happy. If I tell him that Dhoni (the cricket player) is really sexy, he doesn’t take it amiss. But when I say I love George Clooney, he begins to find fault with him. It must be the way I say it, I suppose.
MBI: I’ll never understand.
PV: You needn’t. Women are not meant to be understood. They are like vines that grow in a particular direction for support, but their tendrils can still be unpredictable.
MBI: Why aren’t men allowed to have tendrils? I’d like to have tendrils. Apparently they can be used to justify almost anything.
PV: Because men have simple minds. It isn’t justification. It’s the easiest way to explain the complexity to a simple mind.
MBI: It isn’t that men have simple minds. It’s that women are irrational. Their brains are all twisted up with tendrils.
PV: Yes. Women make this world complicated. But at the same time, beautiful.
MBI: You mentioned Sophia Loren. Why did you have to reach so far back in time to come up with a suitable example?
PV: She seems to have enjoyed more fan following than all of today’s starlets put together. The women of today try too hard, I guess. Men aren’t looking for so much. They’re generally satisfied.
MBI: Are you saying that men have more basic needs and lower expectations, so they feel less disappointed in their relationships?
PV: Yes. But those basic needs MUST be met. If they’re not, the men stray, in thought or in action.
MBI: But what are women hoping to accomplish by making these comments about other men?
PV: There is nothing to accomplish. Or maybe it is their way of straying. When I say I love Hugh Jackman, I do not mean anything. I could not dream of doing anything with him. He just seems like a good guy. Dhoni is my latest god because he also seems like a good guy.
MBI: But when someone writes on her blog that she’s in love with a movie star, does she consider what her husband will think if he reads it? Is she sending him a message?
PV: No, she’s not sending him any message. She’s just admiring a handsome man. That’s what I think.
MBI: So I’m barking up a tree that isn’t even there?
PV: See. There is something there. But it is not as disastrous as you’re imagining.
MBI: How about women who are very religious? Many talk about infidelity and adultery with scorn. And yet they say things that sound as though they have other ideas. It seems hypocritical.
PV: Join my husband’s club. This infuriates him.
MBI: I think he’s a good guy. But I don’t fully buy your explanation. I think it’s something deeper.
PV: Deeper like what?
MBI: Dissatisfaction. Maybe wanting the husband to feel small and unimpressive. Putting him in his place. Maybe it’s a kind of verbal revenge.
PV: Yes! And yet, a very subtle, un-malicious one. And also, a fantasy that makes women happy while they experience it.
(ONE WEEK LATER)
MBI: There’s an idea for a post trying to form in my brain, but you may not like it.
PV: I already don’t like it. But tell me.
MBI: You remember our conversation about Hugh Jackman. And Dhoni. This tendency for married women to talk about celebrities, saying how gorgeous they are or how they’re in love with them? Very often right in front of their husbands?
PV: Yes.
MBI: I always thought it was just shallow, superficial, insensitive behavior. But recently something clicked in my mind. Are these women missing something in their married lives? Why are they fantasizing about actors and athletes? Maybe it’s something important, and not as superficial as I’d thought.
PV: The thing is, women and men both undergo feelings of disappointment after their respective marriages. It might be related to the sentimental or the physical aspect of the marriage. But disappointments are there. Men don’t fantasize much about marriage before it actually happens. Women do. So their collection of dreams is more comprehensive. Hence, the propensity to feel disappointed is greater. Men also look at other women after their marriage, but manage to keep it subtle.
MBI: What do you think women are disappointed about?
PV: Many women are disappointed about sex. But since, for them it also involves feelings and emotions, this disappointment involves much more than just sex. So, a husband has a tougher job to fulfill.
MBI: Do you think this topic would make a good post? Or have I made it much more important than it is? What does your husband say about these things?
PV: Most times he speaks of the entire thing just the way you do. That it is absurd for the woman to think that her comments will go unnoticed, or won’t hurt the man. He tells me that men don’t say things about other women in front of their wives. And I say, oh, so it’s good to say it behind their backs? He says some things are better left unsaid.
MBI: It isn’t so much what is said, but the way it’s said, and the intent that sometimes seems to be there.
PV: Are you speaking from personal experience?
MBI: Yes. But mostly from listening and observing.
PV: Why must it bother if the woman appreciates another man? It is like appreciating another good thing, no? A beautiful house.
MBI: Maybe. I can admire someone else’s home. That doesn’t mean I plan to move in.
PV: Exactly.
MBI: But there are differences. My house doesn’t have feelings of insecurity. It won’t feel angry or hurt if I say I like another house better. Also, I may see something in the other house that I can incorporate into my own. I may like the color, and come home and paint mine the same. But a wife can’t do that with her husband. She can’t take the football player’s big muscles or the television star’s cute dimples and implant them into her spouse.
PV: When do you think the appreciation is ‘safe’?
MBI: When it’s occasional, and unfocused. But many people seem to think it’s safe just because it is a celebrity, as if they aren’t real people. Celebrities are remote, out of reach, and therefore safe. But what if the celebrity lives in the same city? Or on the next block? Does it still seem safe and appropriate?
PV: Most women would say it would make no difference. There’s no real relationship, nor is there a desire for one. It’s just an appreciation for someone who is attractive. Do you never find other women attractive?
MBI: You’re going to say you don’t believe me.
PV: Try me.
Read the second half of this discussion on Priya’s blog, Partial View.
arborfamiliae
May 22, 2011
Fantasizing and exercising one’s imagination is an important part of being a well-rounded human being. But there have to be boundaries. I want my kids developing their imaginations and flexing their fantasizing muscles, but if their drawings get too violent or dark I get concerned.
For a man or a woman to fantasize about another person or another relationship probably doesn’t hurt–even if they discuss it with their spouse or others. It might even challenge them to be better in their own relationship or to try to build a relationship with their spouse that fulfills all their dreams and fantasies.
But sadly, in my line of work, I see what happens when fantasies create feelings of lack and insufficiency in a person’s self, spouse or relationship. I see people get fixated on a person or a type of person or a kind of relationship and then crash themselves on the rocks trying to reach that destination.
Sometimes I wonder if people really understand the power of fantasizing. I think most people don’t understand its risks. And like so many things in life that are powerful, when used well and within its purpose, it can do great good, but mishandled it can cause great pain and harm.
The conclusion that you and Priya came to (listed on her part of the blog post) I think comes down to a basic risk/reward analysis. We all have to make it (we make them every day in all kinds of different areas: finances, parenting, the speed we drive our cars). But what matters most is that a couple makes the analysis together and then works really hard to live by it in a way that deepens their relationship with each other.
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bronxboy55
May 23, 2011
Very wise words, Kevin. You seem to have things in perspective, and I’m sure you and Julia have discussed these issues. I worried that my thoughts in this post came across as narrow-minded and unrealistic. What I really have a problem with is our society’s endless hunger for entertainment, and the mass worship of celebrities that seems to have resulted. I can’t remember the last time I stood on line at the grocery store and didn’t see Jennifer Aniston’s face on a magazine cover. We’ve fooled ourselves into thinking these people are part of our lives, and we’ve made way too much room for them. But there I go again.
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dearrosie
May 23, 2011
I think we somehow think movie stars aren’t human – that they’re larger than life – but if you’d stand with me behind my cash register in the Museum you’d eventually see them all and they’re all the same size as us and LOL some of them have shoes that hurt their toes, and kids that whine 🙂
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
You’ve already written some great posts from your perspective behind that cash register, Rose. I’m sure that would make another one.
I hope all is well.
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carldagostino
May 22, 2011
Socrates meets Plato for tea
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bronxboy55
May 23, 2011
Priya made the tea, Carl, and it was delicious. She kept bragging about a secret ingredient, but I’m almost sure it was hemlock. It’s pretty hard to slip anything past me.
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Lenore Diane
May 22, 2011
Wow. This is brilliant. Dare I comment prior to reading Partial View’s input? Having just gushed over Captain Wilson in AA’s latest post, I am guilty of the above discussion. I try to get my husband to gush about women, but – and forgive me for making generalities – he’s an engineer. He’s not wired to gush. Rest assured, while gushing over some random celebrity or charter boat captain, I will forever gush over my husband. He is a very attractive man. ~ Lenore
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
I’m glad to hear that you gush over your husband, Lenore. I’m sure he appreciates it, engineer or not.
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She's a Maineiac
May 22, 2011
First of all, you two need to come up with a weekly conversation. I love reading your back and forth reactions. I see a radio/TV show in your future: “Chit Chat with Priya and Charles!” Secondly, without having read Priya’s part 2 yet…to me it’s more about how women are more verbal in general. We like to talk and will talk about anything, especially Hugh Jackman. If one of my girl friends aren’t available to chat with, then yes, I will gush about him in front of my husband. Is that wrong? probably. Is he a little crushed by that? never thought about it until now so now I feel a little guilty. But I suspect my husband also admires female celebs just as much as I admire Sting: he just doesn’t say it out loud and as freely as I do.
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
I think the key to the whole discussion is the realization that it falls into one of those gray areas. Obviously, there are many couples for whom this stuff isn’t a problem, because both partners feel free to express an outside attraction or fantasy. But when one partner feels uncomfortable or threatened, it helps if the other is aware of that fact — and tries to be sensitive about it.
Thank you for the kind words, Darla. I like the suggestion in your first sentence. But could we change it to monthly?
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souldipper
May 22, 2011
I adore both of you! I can hardly wait to click over to Priya.
The last cartoon caused me to spew yerba mate all over my keyboard, drop my gourd so a nest of wet tea steeps on my thigh and who knows in which direction the thermos of hot water flew. I can’t move just yet, but I just had to let you know you hit a button!! 😀
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
I thought the post might hit a button, Amy, but I never intended for you to drop your gourd.
This was fun to do, and a little scary.
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Jess Witkins
May 22, 2011
Nice dialogue. I can see the conversation going on a long time, there’s so much you go into when it’s a battle of the sexes. You guys really dove in. Thanks for sharing!
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
I think it could go on forever. This post, as published, was less than half of the original conversations.
Thanks for taking the time to read it, Jess.
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Margaret Reyes Dempsey
May 22, 2011
I think many men have their favorites, too. It can be the only reason why Baywatch was so popular in its day. 😉
I guess I’m kind of weird. I am totally not drawn in by a “stranger’s” looks. In the absence of any interaction with a person, I don’t think I could be attracted to them. For me, the way someone thinks is appealing to me, and then what they look like finally registers. I know, weird.
I’ve never understood the appeal of the Chippendale’s bachelorette party or The Situation. Ugh.
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
What you said at the end of that middle paragraph is exactly how I am, Margaret. I even use the same word: register. I don’t think it’s weird. Maybe it’s actually the norm, but the others are more vocal.
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Margaret Reyes Dempsey
May 26, 2011
I finally made it over to Priya’s post to read part two. The twilight zone theme started playing in my head when I saw your “register” statement. Great minds, huh? 😉
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writerwoman61
May 22, 2011
What an interesting discussion, Charles…I have talked in my blog about my attraction to Martin Henderson (formerly of “Off the Map”), and Colin Ferguson (from “Eureka”). Jim and I aren’t married yet, but are in a long-term, committed relationship…I have no intention of cheating on him with anybody. He knows that the only reason I watch Eureka is because of Colin, but he also knows that if Colin wasn’t on the show, I wouldn’t watch sci-fi, which is Jim’s thing…he likes me to watch “his stuff” with him. I think it would be nice to meet either of these actors, but I wouldn’t know what to do other than say “Hello” and shake their hands (an autograph, and maybe a photo would be nice too).
Off to read the rest of the conversation at Priya’s place…
Wendy
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
It sounds like you and Jim are on the same wavelength, Wendy. I’m glad. And it seems (judging from this tiny sample) that many people feel as you do. But still, for some this can be a sensitive issue, and surprisingly hard to talk about.
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dearrosie
May 23, 2011
I agree with Margaret. I’m also not particularly impressed by how an actor looks. My favorite male actors aren’t sexy bodybuilders, but someone like Laurence Olivier who could *act*, or are funny like Robin Williams.
When I asked my Mr F to name his favorite actresses he thought of about half a dozen women all of whom have black hair. Whew!
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
One of the things that drives me crazy is when I ask someone what a movie is about and they immediately tell me who’s in it. I don’t watch movies because of who the actors are, nor do I avoid movies because of that. Also, it can be difficult to judge an actor’s skill by watching a film. I saw George C. Scott in two different stage plays; he was amazing. I also saw Hal Holbrook’s one-man show about Mark Twain — equally amazing. There are actors and there are movie stars. Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep, I think, are both.
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dearrosie
May 27, 2011
I’m so with you BB. I’ll go to anything Tom and Meryl are in. I’m not going to mention those actors I avoid – there are too many of them who think acting means a serious expression on one’s face, or lifting an eyebrow, or showing cleavage, or long blonde hair…
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magsx2
May 23, 2011
Hi,
Loved your conversation, brilliant, but that last cartoon was excellent, and for some so true. In my younger days when us girls used to go to see a movie, there was always a nice looking guy we would talk about for hours after the movie, not so much now that we are all older, now it’s more about the plot or lack thereof, it’s rare to talk about the good looking guy. Although every now and then someone would say, “If only I was 30 years younger”. 🙂
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
Several people have pointed out that men do the same things, and I’m sure it’s true. But I think social pressures over the past twenty years have inhibited them from being more verbal, while the trend seems to have gone in the opposite direction for women. Priya mentioned Sophia Loren, because there was a time when actresses were equal to their male counterparts in stature. For every Cary Grant, Rock Hudson, and Clark Gable, there was an Elizabeth Taylor, Lana Turner, or Marilyn Monroe. There are few, if any, such women in movies today.
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Jessica Sieghart
May 23, 2011
Now I almost feel guilty for saying “I Love Bon Jovi” all the time. 😉 This conversation scares me a bit because I hesitate to explain feelings of large groups of people who all may have different motivations and ideas, so I’ll just explain mine. The first part of the issue is that I think we all use the word “love” too freely. “Love” really shouldn’t be used for husbands as well as ice cream, but we all do it. Even though I do say “I love Bon Jovi” all the time, the truth is, I don’t. (Despite my many stalking attempts) I’ve never even met him. If he knocked on my door, would I run off with him? Not on your life! Why? He’s exactly what I DON’T want as a husband or boyfriend and my husband knows this. Bon Jovi would never be home and everywhere he goes he has crazed women, who, after shamelessly flirting with his security, might just be willing to sit on splintery wood chips for three hours just to get a glimpse of him walking out a door. (I’m not naming any names, I’m just using it as an example 😉 All these years, though, something about his music and the sound of his voice calls out to me. I don’t know what that is, but what it is I’m drawn to is his onstage character and that’s not really “him”. I’ve already read Priya’s half and I have to laugh because my husband’s “girlfriend” is none other than Halle Berry. She’s hot. I get that and I’m not even a little bit jealous that she might look better in cat boots than I do. 😉
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
Jessica, this post was scary to publish, too. In fact, we decided to kill it several times. Generalizations are almost never effective, and that’s especially true when we talk about relationships, because we never really know what’s going on with other people. But it’s obvious that you and your husband have established the ground rules in your marriage and so these things are more easily handled. For a lot of people, I imagine, it comes down to communication, and that’s something that can be a weak spot.
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Earth Ocean Sky Redux
May 23, 2011
This is one of the most thought-provoking threads you have posted, Charles. You and Priya are remarkable in your ability to carry on such a deep dialogue. Each of you has a writing gift to bring in your own readers while also crossing over into the others. That’s rare in blogging.
I can’t begin to make a comment yet. This requires much more contemplating but thanks to both of you for giving me something to ponder today.
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
Thanks, EOS. It’s been gratifying (and something of a relief) to see the variety of comments that have come through. To be honest, I was expecting most people to say I was making a big deal out of nothing.
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Damyanti
May 23, 2011
LOL Charles…I love your voice, and how you and Priya spar with each other…off to read her post now 🙂
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bronxboy55
May 24, 2011
I think that means you completely agree with her, and you just don’t want to tell me. Coward!
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Damyanti
May 25, 2011
Lol 😀
If you look at the comment I left Priya you would see I’m one of the few who didn’t see the big deal about this whole issue, because it never occurred to me or my husband to take it seriously:D
We both have our crushes..the skinny genius on the series Criminal Minds is my latest…me and my husband both laugh about it. He got me the entire season 5, and I’m looking forward to watching it! I even crushed on Obama for a while….. rotfl!
I enjoyed your voice and the back and forth though, and that is precisely what I said 🙂
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bronxboy55
May 27, 2011
Okay. I take back the coward thing.
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Val
May 25, 2011
Phew… I can’t get into this here, too many thoughts! Have a look at my blog!
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bronxboy55
May 26, 2011
I’ll be the first one to admit that I have more than my share of quirks, curiosities, idiosyncrasies, neuroses, psychoses, delusions, aberrations, insecurities, eccentricities, absurdities, insanities, and peculiarities. They’re what make me a normal person.
I hope the discussion we’ve been having will lead to many more, Val.
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bronxboy55
May 26, 2011
See what Diane has done with this:
http://dianehenders.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/better-left-unanalyzed/
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Allan Douglas
May 26, 2011
Hmmm… all I can say is that I make it a point not to go on house tours. While I do like checking out new architecture and decorating ideas, I don’t want to become dissatisfied with my own home. My house may not have all the latest whiz-bang gadgets and the newest, sleekest stying options, but it is very comforatble, solid, and I feel secure here.
Same with my wife. I would never (willingly) do or say anything that would make her feel inadequate. And she has the same consideration for me. I guess that makes us a pair of odd ducks in this civilization.
Thanks for a thought provoking post Charles.
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bronxboy55
May 27, 2011
You and Marie may be odd ducks, Allan. Or you may be part of a silent majority. I’m not sure, but I appreciate your thoughts, as always.
By the way, your book looks great:
http://www.allandouglas.com/blog/publishing-2/just-published/
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Mitch Mitchell
May 27, 2011
I haven’t even made it to part two and I already see trouble coming. I have to admit that I find this conversation kind of strange. I say that because I do hear men saying the same types of things that Priya is saying. Goodness, I talk about Mariah Carey all the time and how I’d have to go spend a few hours with her if she came to the house, said she needed me, and sang my two favorite songs. And my wife said to go have a great time. lol
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bronxboy55
May 27, 2011
As with many other couples, Mitch, you and your wife seem to be on the same wavelength. In a similar (yet completely opposite) way, Allan and his wife share a common understanding of their boundaries. Just as you find the conversation strange, so do people who feel the way Allan does. Now imagine a couple in which both perspectives are represented; now that’s trouble. And that’s what this post was really about.
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shoreacres
May 27, 2011
Well, I’ve stopped by several times to leave a comment.
Finally, I’ve decided it would be better left unsaid.
🙂
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bronxboy55
May 27, 2011
Now that’s just cruel, Linda. But I certainly understand.
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Diane Henders
May 28, 2011
Thanks for the link to my post, Charles! And thanks for a fabulous, thought-provoking discussion. 🙂
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bronxboy55
May 30, 2011
Thank you, Diane. I love the flow chart.
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Ciphur
June 8, 2011
Another of those arguments that led to ‘Men are from Mars , Women are from Venus’ 🙂
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bronxboy55
June 21, 2011
Definitely different planets, anyway.
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obsidianfactory
June 8, 2011
Lol all these differences between men and women make me dizzy ▬ I’m too androgynous in nature ▬ also fantasizing is not really worship lol everyone, be they female or male, do it lol ^_^
But I seriously do not feel “typical” when these discussions come along ▬ I’m just too androgynous in nature.
You seem to have very interesting conversations.
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obsidianfactory
June 8, 2011
Oh yeah I read the second part of the post ▬ I felt it was too generalizing. I have very different tastes from the mainstream and must say you are a different sort of man. Most men/women will love/like the celebrities all the time and couples may not really care because you see the like is fragmented mostly and not fragmented to accomplish but rather to entertain.
I think I am like you. To be attracted to someone I usually do not only focus on a person’s physical features ▬ that’s a small part ▬ truth is that I like personality more and intellect as well. It would be a plastic thumb and not a experienced sore/fleshy one to like only someone for their beauty.
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bronxboy55
June 21, 2011
We’re definitely in the minority, obsidian. This is the Age of Celebrity.
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Nel
April 18, 2014
This is one plausible discussion (I was going to say argument but I don’t think that’s what it is). I do tend to say things like, “Chris Helmsworth is so hot!” and “I watched Troy ‘coz of Brad Pitt’s a**…” to my beau and he seems to be just fine with it.
You think I should ask him if that’s acceptable?
But before that, I’m heading over to Priya’s half.
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bronxboy55
May 7, 2014
I seem to be in the minority, Nel, so it’s probably nothing to worry about.
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