A Brief Discussion of Reincarnation and the World Cup of Cricket.
And Heaven and Baseball, too.
As part of my attempt to co-write another post about India with blogging friend Priya of Partial View, I watched the Cricket World Cup Final on April 2. After defeating arch-rival Pakistan in the semi-finals, India was playing Sri Lanka, and as I came to understand, both matches
were a very big deal. But I might as well have been attending a performance of Oedipus the King in the original Greek, because I had no idea what was going on. To make matters worse, the final wasn’t televised and I had to watch it on my computer. I guess online demand was extremely heavy, causing the video stream to start, freeze, and re-start every seven seconds for the entire match; as a result I developed a bad case of hiccups and a nervous twitch in my left eye. Meanwhile, of course, Priya enjoyed the event with her family in comfort, probably on a
72-inch flat screen television. She warned me about the streaming problem, but by then I was already experiencing convulsions.
PV: That’s what you get if you watch it through a medium that can get clogged with millions of visitors who couldn’t make it to the stadium or see a live broadcast. People here jostle everywhere, even in morgues, to watch their heroes play.
MBI: India really is a different place, isn’t it? Where I come from, people in morgues hardly move at all. They certainly don’t jostle.
PV: Really? Ours sometimes get a new lease on life to watch cricket before they’re re-born and come back. Do morgues there have no living people, by the way?
MBI: To be honest, I’ve never really been to a morgue. For all I know they may have Super Bowl parties and Sunday brunch. But this idea of reincarnation is intriguing. Do you think people in the West understand it?
PV: I’m not sure. You tell me.
MBI: I don’t know what anyone else thinks, but my concept is that reincarnation is a process that allows individuals to eventually close the gap between their true selves and the lives they’ve been living. It’s a kind of course correction. Our actions and attitudes either pull us closer or push us farther away from our destination. And because we’re slow learners, it may take many lives on Earth to get it right.
PV: Yes, very. You must have been paying attention in your past life. When you say our actions and attitudes decide our course, you are spot on. The crux, however, is the destination. What is it that you’d want? Take birth again as a sultan with a formidable harem, or perhaps a rock star with a steely voice? Or would you rather leave all that behind and renounce this blow-hot blow-cold world? Whatever you want, make a decision and live it. You will find yourself enjoying it in the next birth. If you have been good, the Moksha (or Liberation) will be yours. Okay, if not the next, then the one after that.
MBI: You say I’m spot on, but that answer surprised me. I thought the destination had already been decided — by the Universe, or something — and that we’re born with some mission to accomplish, but we have no idea what it is. So we spend our lives flailing around in the dark, hoping to find a path that at least takes us in the right direction. And to make matters worse, we can’t remember the lessons we learned, or were supposed to learn, in previous lives. That last part really had me confused.
PV: I knew I’d rejoiced too soon at your suspiciously quick comprehension. If you want to understand reincarnation, you will first have to understand the terms. Then it should be self-explanatory. I hope.
You previously said reincarnation is like a course correction, and that our actions determine whether we find our destination. According to the belief we are discussing, a soul, which is as old as the Universe (or something) and just a tiny part of it, sheds a body after it dies, much like changing worn-out clothes. It keeps on doing so, seeking the next mountain to climb or the next election to win, until it realises that desires are actually a means for eternal discontent. In this journey, it keeps correcting its course, or at least it’s supposed to. And it is believed that this will eventually lead the soul to its final destination, Moksha.
MBI: Do you find the idea of Liberation a little unsettling? Does it seem like one long boring, transparent Nothingness? Similar to an eternal Heaven, only without the angels and ice cream?
PV: About the boring, transparent Nothingness minus the angels and ice cream: again, I wouldn’t know. I am still in this world with sinfully pink Cadillacs and brilliant diamonds that could blind even the brightest of glow worms.
MBI: Here’s something else I’ve been wondering. Are these beliefs about reincarnation necessarily tied to what is traditionally thought of as religious doctrine? Or are they embedded in the secular culture?
PV: No, they’re not tied to religious doctrines at all. That would undermine their validity, I’d say. These are concepts that have been derived from, believe it or not, a rare scientific and spiritual collaboration over centuries. They are a part of the culture in which people here grow up. Most, of course, do not waste their time in counting the previous births or the remaining ones before attaining Moksha, but almost all are aware that every action has a reaction — Karma. You keep adding to your kitty of actions, good or bad. And see if it gets you Nothingness or A Glorious Muddle. It’s entirely your choice.
MBI: But who would prefer Nothingness? I’d take the Glorious Muddle, just because something is almost always better than nothing. Or have I missed it again?
PV: Maybe. But I can see why you would think that way. Why pursue something you don’t know about; something that’s going to turn out to be Nothing anyway? What would Heaven be like, I wonder. It does seem to be Glorious, without the Muddle. Or not?
MBI: I can only repeat what I was taught. Or how I interpreted what I was taught. My image of Heaven was a place where the soul goes after it leaves the physical body. A place of eternal joy. All of the negative experiences and emotions linked to mortal life are gone. But consciousness remains. When in Heaven, I would know that I was there. That seems to be a strong difference. When the soul reaches Moksha, where is it? Does it even make sense to ask where?
PV: The where would be everywhere. But even that isn’t accurate. Languages are too limited to express some of these ideas. Where is Heaven? Everywhere, somewhere, or nowhere?
MBI: As kids, we all pictured it as up, in the sky. And Hell was down.
PV: Inside the Earth?
MBI: That’s hard to say. Down, but not necessarily under the ground.
PV: It’s a different way of thinking. Completely different.
MBI: When I took Spanish in high school, the teacher told us that we would be on our way to learning the language when we stopped translating in our heads and began thinking in Spanish. I’ve always remembered that advice, yet as I read about and watch the cricket match, I can’t help trying to make sense of it by translating every play into the language of baseball. Even when I consciously tell myself not to, I do it anyway. I have a feeling that, as nations and societies struggle to understand and relate to each other, there’s a similar tendency that gets in their way. We keep looking at other people and filtering what we see through our own familiar lenses.
PV: And different religious groups do the same. I don’t think there’s a solution to that. If your concept of the afterlife is some kind of eternal reward, you may struggle to find the same thing in our notion of Liberation. If you watch a cricket match and keep waiting for someone to hit a “home run,” you will be frustrated. But I want to ask you: when the batsman hits the ball in baseball, why does he throw his bat?
MBI: I noticed that in cricket, the hitter runs with the bat. That seems awkward. In baseball, once the batter hits the ball, he’s no longer a batter; he becomes a runner, and running with the bat makes no sense. But again, we’re both looking at the other’s sport from a biased point of view.
PV: That’s true.
MBI: In baseball, a team plays a full season of games. And with each one, the players, managers, and coaches work to make improvements, fill gaps, let go of weaknesses, and build on strengths. The team hopes to eventually make its way though the playoffs and
into the World Series. Would you say life, death,
and reincarnation are similar to that process?
PV: No. I wouldn’t. You’ve oversimplified again. Reincarnation has nothing at all to do with baseball. However, it’s very much like what a cricket team goes through in order to get to the World Cup finals. You win the final match, and that may be as close to Liberation as you can get without leaving this Earth.
* * * * *
MBI: Here’s what I learned about cricket:
The hitter is called a batsman. There are two batsmen up at a time. Their goal is to score runs and protect the wickets. The pitcher is called a bowler, and a bowler who doesn’t throw very hard is sometimes referred to as a Dibbly-Dobbler.
On April 2, 2011, in the finals of the World Cup of Cricket, India (277 for 4) defeated Sri Lanka (274 for 6) by six wickets with ten balls remaining. Team Captain M.S. Dhoni hit 91 not out of just 79 balls to lead India to victory. Whatever that means.
carldagostino
April 11, 2011
There seems to be so much brinkmanship there and some actual fighting as well, how do they get to play sports without killing each other?
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bronxboy55
April 11, 2011
On the contrary, Carl. I watched the post-game awards ceremony and interviews and was stunned by the sportsmanship. The Sri Lankans were cheered by the fans in Mumbai, and their captain graciously congratulated India for being the better team.
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Margaret Reyes Dempsey
April 11, 2011
Loved this! I wish we were all sitting in the same room so we could discuss in real time.
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bronxboy55
April 12, 2011
That would be fun, Margaret. There’s always more to learn, and sometimes that learning involves things we thought we already knew.
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souldipper
April 11, 2011
Totally delightful! This has to become the prototype for world peace! Charles, I noticed that you not only graciously allowed Priya to disregard baseball in your attempt to grasp reincarnation. You also allowed her to grab Cricket and put it up as the perfect analogy. Is that a case of “Captain Priya hit 1 not out of just 2 to lead India to victory.”??
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bronxboy55
April 12, 2011
She had me at a disadvantage, Amy. By the time I finished watching the streaming video, the match had been over for six days.
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Lenore Diane
April 11, 2011
I laughed! I cried! I snorted! (.. and that was just with the first paragraph.)
Pardon me, please – this was magnunderful. I’ll have to re-read this post several times, because you filled it with so many goodies. What a pleasure.
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bronxboy55
April 12, 2011
Thank you, Lenore. For me, the real value of this kind of exchange is learning that people everywhere struggle with what Priya calls the Glorious Muddle — trying to figure out those few big questions while also fielding the small and countless realities of daily life. Too often we allow ourselves to be distracted and separated by superficial differences.
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Jess Witkins
April 11, 2011
Fascinating! You both carry a nice tete a tete. I like this discussion, but only because I once spent a whole summer reading books on Buddhism, was raised Catholic, and read a lot of Sylvia Browne books. I guess I’m in the Glorious Muddle. Great post!
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She's a Maineiac
April 12, 2011
Me too. Lots of books on Buddhism and Sylvia Browne in my library.
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bronxboy55
April 12, 2011
I admire your open-mindedness, Jess and Darla. That’s another sure sign of a writer. Your eclectic set of interests is one of the reasons I — and many other readers — enjoy your blogs so much.
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dearrosie
April 12, 2011
Great post. I especially LOVE your illustrations on this one.
I was in South Africa last month where they take their cricket very seriously, but like you I didn’t understand what it all meant. I’ve learned something about cricket thanks to you and Priya – guess you could call me a Dibbly Dobbler, because I can’t throw a ball.
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
Even the basic techniques for throwing the ball are different. In baseball, the pitcher bends his arm at the elbow for leverage and speed. In cricket, the bowler has to keep the throwing arm straight, getting most of the power from the shoulder:
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-grip-the-ball-to-bowl-inswing
I look forward to reading your post about South Africa:
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dearrosie
April 15, 2011
Now why would they insist that the throwing arm be straight or bent? Isn’t that just personal style? I had no idea…
Thank you for linking to my post on South Africa, and for your very thoughtful comment. Much appreciated 🙂
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bronxboy55
April 16, 2011
It must be because the bowler is throwing at a full run. If they allowed him to throw like a baseball pitcher, no one would ever hit the ball. That would be my guess.
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Allan Douglas
April 12, 2011
Fascinating discussion Charles, thanks for the voyeuristic experience. I particularly related to the bit about always trying to translate cricket into baseball – and not being able to learn a language until you stop trying to translate and just speak it. I guess that’s why I never was able to speak more than a few words at a a time in Spanish.
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
I’ve seen young children who were fluent in more than one language, and it may be because their logical minds hadn’t taken over yet. That tendency to filter, compare, and translate can really get in the way. I’ve experienced it while traveling, too; as soon as I encounter something unfamiliar, I begin to search my mind for a related category. It helps, sometimes, to realize that I don’t have a category.
Thanks, Allan!
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Jessica Sieghart
April 12, 2011
This is brilliant! SO brilliant, in fact, that I’m not even sure I’m grasping it. I think of reincarnation similarly to you. Priya’s made me realize how incorrect my thoughts were. I still can’t say I understand what it is (I have some reading to do!), but I understand enough to know that I’ve been really wrong all this time! I’ve always thought that Moksha was Heaven, but now I think that it’s something you achieve instead of somewhere you go. I’m fascinated now by your locations of Heaven and Hell. I’ve never really thought about where they were other than “up” and “down”. Heaven’s location is easier to envision because there’s always images of angels on clouds. I have no idea if Hell is under the ground or not. Why have I not wondered about this before? It totally seems like something I would have wanted to know at one time or another.
P.S. There are live people at the morgue. Somebody’s gotta work there 🙂
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
Thanks, Jessica. I don’t know about the brilliant part, but it was fun, and one of those discussions that may never end. I can remember thinking, as a young boy ambitiously digging a hole to China, that I would somehow have to go around Hell. There was no anxiety about it, though. I was sure I would know where Hell was and when to start my detour. Things were so much simpler back then, weren’t they?
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Amiable Amiable
April 12, 2011
I need to read this a few more times because 1) after “I developed a bad case of hiccups and a nervous twitch in my left eye,” I couldn’t concentrate because I was laughing so hard; and 2) this is … what Lenore said … MAGNUNDERFUL! I loved this post! Charles and Priya, you are … FANTABULOUS!
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
Thanks, AA. One of the great things about working with Priya is that she’s constantly saying she doesn’t know anything, yet her responses overflow with insight. She originally told me she wasn’t that interested in cricket, but as soon as I displayed my ignorance, she proved to be extremely knowledgeable. I learned a lot.
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She's a Maineiac
April 12, 2011
Great post. Thanks for sharing your views Priya and Charles. I find it so hard to attach mere words to my view of “heaven/nirvana/Liberation”. I think words only get in the way. To me, it’s where we all come from and go back to, again and again. Another dimension, not a specific “place”. Like an energy field where we’re all connected but still keep our separate entities or souls (I’d like to hope!) In any case, this post has given me plenty to think about, thanks!
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
It’s hard to imagine that after death we’re nowhere, and being everywhere isn’t much easier. For as long as we can remember, we’ve been here, as individuals. But then I think about old photographs taken long before I was born. Where was I? Part of everything? Or just non-existent? And do those answers even have anything to do with what happens in the future? It’s easy to understand why so many people want something definite to believe — death is the ultimate uncertainty. But it’s also fun to think about. I’m glad you agree, Maineiac.
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Jac
April 12, 2011
I think the problem that people have with the concept of Heaven, is that they are seeing it as a reward destination. If you believe that there is a Supreme Being, with unlimited intelligence, that created the universe (and how can you not when you look all around at the beauty of the earth and sky?) then you can begin to understand the concept. That Creator must be perfect and separate from His creation, since creation isn’t perfect at this time. Humans are different than the rest of life, in that we have the capacity of sacrificial love, self-awareness, creativity and rational thinking, to name a few qualities. Now, as humans, made in that Creator’s image (animals don’t compose music, paint masterpieces, etc.) we have the inclination to reconcile ourselves to that Creator/created relationship. If we choose to develop a relationship with that Supreme Being, Who must already love us (look at the place He gave us to live!) then we long to be with Him, like 2 human lovers do. If He is perfect and has a dwelling place that is perfect (Heaven) then our goal is to be there with Him after we die, as to never be apart from Him again. Therefore, Heaven is not so much a place of reward (and Hell, a punishment) as it is a wonderful home where we dwell, outside of these imperfect bodies, with God forever. Hell, then, is a separation from Him forever. As a Catholic priest says at Mass “welcome into Your Kingdom, our departed brothers and sisters, and ALL who have left this world in Your friendship” – beautiful! I can’t speak for everyone, but I can’t imagine having the core of my being totally fulfilled on this earth. I’ve lived for almost 52 years now, and haven’t even come close, except when I am contemplating God, and perfect love!
In regard to the sports thing – well, I have never watched cricket, but it sounds totally confusing! Baseball makes sense to me and it is easy to follow, since it moves rather slowly and methodically. If anyone thinks that Heaven and baseball have nothing to do with each other, then you haven’t watched “Field of Dreams”!
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She's a Maineiac
April 12, 2011
I really loved your description, Jac. (and Field of Dreams, one of my favorite movies) Do you think that ultimately we are all part of God? Meaning, God is within us at all times and we all go back to and become a God-like consciousness after we die? (or choose to be separate from God…in other words “Hell”) So that we are all simply God’s consciousness or Being separated into millions of souls while we are on Earth.
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bronxboy55
April 12, 2011
Darla,
Send me an email and I’ll reply with Jac’s address — if you want.
mail@mostlybrightideas.com
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
“If I’d only gotten to be a doctor for five minutes, now that would have been a tragedy.”
— Moonlight Graham
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Jac
April 12, 2011
Maineiac (clever name!), I’m not exactly sure what my answer to that would be. On the one hand, I believe that God has always existed and that our souls are created by Him, so in one sense, yes we kind have always existed, too ( w/o the awareness). On the other hand, we have an eternal future (like Him) but if we had an eternal past, we would BE Him. That is a tough one! I suppose it is like an artist, that has an idea for a painting in his mind, but until he actually puts hand to brush, the painting doesn’t exist yet.
Have Charles send you my email address (I am his sister) and we can discuss it further w/o hijacking his blog! I like questions that make me really think about the details of my beliefs.
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Val Erde
April 12, 2011
Brill post both of you, Priya and Charles. And well, I commented over at Priya’s on the reincarnation part, so here I’ll comment on the cricket part and say that despite having been born in the UK and lived here all my life, I’ve never been able to get the hang of cricket. As for Baseball… it seems to have a lesser (much lesser) relative in a game I ‘had’ to play at school called Rounders which I could also never get the hang of, despite all my attempts to play it. I could never understand the response to my ‘but I didn’t hit the ball!’ which was ‘it doesn’t matter – just RUN’!
😉
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
“Brill” is my favorite word of yours, Val. I never think I deserve it, but love to see it, just the same. I know that many people think rounders was the precursor to modern baseball, and it does look more familiar to me than cricket does. But I don’t know how it’s played, and would have the same trouble you did in remembering to run without hitting the ball first.
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writerwoman61
April 12, 2011
Hmmm…fun post, Charles and Priya!
Cricket would bewilder me too, Charles! But I don’t understand football or basketball either…
I truly believe in karma though…hopefully, I’ll be rewarded for being nice to people, and people who are jerks will get what they deserve!
Wendy
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bronxboy55
April 13, 2011
I think there are far more nice people than jerks, but for some reason we keep giving the jerks all the attention and power. I also think we have the ability to change that right now, if we really want to.
Thanks for the comment, Wendy. It’s always great to hear from you.
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writerwoman61
April 13, 2011
This is a nosy question, Charles…just wondering if you are a Canadian citizen (I’m a dual citizen)? All this talk of change makes me think about our upcoming election…
Wendy
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bronxboy55
April 14, 2011
We’re still American citizens, Wendy, and Permanent Residents in Canada. We’ve been here almost thirteen years and are talking (again) about dual citizenship. I’d love to hear about your experiences. I can’t remember if you have my email address, but here it is:
mail@mostlybrightideas.com
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happykidshappymom
April 13, 2011
What an interesting post! When I read the title, I thought, there’s no way he can write about all that in one post. But you did! And it worked.
I love the juxtaposition of reincarnation/heaven with cricket/baseball. Well done!
And you are right — we never know how we look through someone else’s eyes.
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bronxboy55
April 14, 2011
I guess the lie was in the word brief. Thanks for reading it all the way through, Melissa, and for the very nice comment.
It seems to be human nature to judge quickly, generalize, and divide up the world into Us and Them. We can’t change that. All we can do is be more compassionate toward the people we come into contact with, and hope it spreads. Blogging seems to be a small step in that direction.
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charlywalker
April 13, 2011
Oh Great……now I’m really confucius…..I’m Catholic American..will I go to hell for liking Cricket better than Baseball?
Those nuns instilled a lot of Sin bearing ideas into my head….plus they had a mean batting average with their rulers….
Great Post, Bronxboy…
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bronxboy55
April 14, 2011
I just looked it up and there are 20 million Catholics in India. I’m sure a lot of them like cricket, so I think you’re in the clear. Then again, maybe you should say two rosaries, just in case.
Our nuns were very accurate with the yardsticks, too, but those wooden pointers with the rubber tips were more aerodynamic. It seems like only yesterday. Some things never leave you.
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Earth Ocean Sky Redux
April 14, 2011
The happy dance of writing styles and ideology between you and Priya is book-worthy. There’s money to be made out there for the two of you to find a way to continue sharing thoughts. Really. At minimum, a Lifetime made-for-TV movie.
Kudos to both of you for letting us share in this brilliance.
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bronxboy55
April 14, 2011
Thank you, EOS. I think I’m going to print your comment and frame it. (Any chance you might want to change careers and become a literary agent?)
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Earth Ocean Sky Redux
April 14, 2011
I have a good friend here in Bedford who is a real deal powerful literary agent – one of the best in the nation, with clients who have best sellers. It’s a tough business. I’ll stick to being a little ole’ blogger. Thanks anyway.
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Jac
April 14, 2011
Many of us have bad memories of those nuns (especially those of us who went to Catholic School in the BRONX!!) but I think they really thought their corporal punishments were good to smack the evil out of us. I say that all of us who have risen above the resentments of their actions, should pray some rosaries to get those women out of Purgatory already!
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bronxboy55
April 16, 2011
I have long since forgiven the nuns, Jac. Given the size of our classes and some of the goons who were in them, it really surprises me that no one ever had to go to the hospital.
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arborfamiliae
April 15, 2011
Interesting post. I’ve seen cricket played on the lawns at The Ohio State University here in Columbus. I’ve heard about reincarnation; I read Siddhartha in college. But I can’t say I understand either one: cricket and reincarnation are equally foreign to me. Your dialogue was helpful on both topics. But I still have a long way to go. Lucky we have a lot of years–in this life, if not others–to learn from other people. Thanks for sharing the dialogue!
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bronxboy55
April 16, 2011
Thank you, Kevin. It’s always great to get your perspective on things.
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cooperstownersincanada
April 20, 2011
Great work, Charles. Very illuminating. As a baseball writer, cricket is still foreign to me. But I hear Rogers Sportsnet will be broadcasting it more regularly in the future.
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bronxboy55
April 22, 2011
It’s really a completely different sport, and as I forced myself to not think in terms of baseball, I found myself enjoying cricket more and more. It’s similar, I think, to the way we can appreciate soccer and hockey — there are common elements, but enough differences to make them distinctive.
Thanks for the comment, Kevin. And remember to protect those wickets.
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Damyanti
April 21, 2011
Love the back and forth 🙂
Being an Indian (a race which has opinions on everything regardless of the depth of knowledge lol) I venture my two cents.
Imho, what is missing from the discussion of reincarnation and Moksha is the concept of Maya, or Duality and Vasana, or Desire.
Moksha is not so much a destination, as a state of being. It is a state of one-ness with the cosmos, where we are expressions of mass and energy. It is the one and only Absolute Truth.
As humans/animals/ living creatures, we are separated from this state by both Maya and Vasana.
Maya or Duality is the opposite of Absolute truth: hence good and bad, positive and negative, up and down, the polar opposites, in short. Or Maya is Relative truth, if you like.
It is believed in the Hindu scriptures (too varied, vast and complicated to quote from, and my knowledge is comparatively very very very limited!) that Vasana/ or Desire is the device which pulls a soul from its immutable state of Absolute Truth ( where it is a diving spark of cosmic energy) into a corporeal state of being.
If a soul has desire, it will be “born” in a physical form in the plane of Duality in order for the desire to be fulfilled.
If it satisfies all its desires in that life, it will go back to its Absolute Truth state. If not, it will be born again and yet again, till it is without Desire.
The hitch is that on a plane with Duality, it is hard to control desires (of ice-creams, saviour angels, movies, sex, fame, wealth, to name a few).
So the soul keeps getting mired into desires and hence the world of Duality.
To attain Moksha, and go back to the original state, Desires need to be controlled, and eliminated.
A person without Desire would be able to tear the veil of Maya/ Relative Truth/ Illusion— and go back to its immortal divine form of infinite bliss, the soul in a state of Moksha, where it exists as a part of the whole cosmic energy.
This was a very poor and brief explanation, Charles, of only one of the belief systems of Hinduism. Yes, there are several :)…but the same basic concepts run through them all.
If you want to know all this from someone who knows what he is talking about, I suggest you pick up “Autobiography of a Yogi” by Swami Yoganananda, who was a practising yogi, (or ascetic) and did much to spread awareness of a certain sect of Hindu spiritual beliefs in the US.
The English in the book is Indian-accented to the extreme, and the Yogi has left his mortal coils decades ago, but if you want an accessible/ personal version of a very complicated spiritual-scientific belief system, you could take a look…. :).
Sorry to crowd out your comment board, and hope I have not offended anyone in any way.
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bronxboy55
April 22, 2011
There is no need to apologize or worry about crowding out the comment board. You know as well as I that sparking discussion is one of the reasons we write.
I agree with you that what Priya and I presented here is an abbreviated attempt at an introduction to certain concepts that are unfamiliar to most Western readers. I’m sure there are many hundreds of books that have been published about Hindu beliefs, and based on what I know about Christianity, I would guess that those beliefs vary widely and contain both subtle nuances and dramatic contradictions. That seems to be the nature of religious scripture, as well as the restrictive languages in which they’re expressed. For example, the word destination you refer to is unclear when applied to something as abstract as a soul; the destination for a soul couldn’t possibly be the same kind of thing as the destination for a tour bus. But even the phrase state of being becomes less definable as you look more and more closely; at least it does for me. And how can a person live without Desire? There will always be the desire for food, water, and oxygen. If some desires are acceptable even on the path to Moksha, where exactly is the line? In order to overcome the other temptations, wouldn’t the person have to have a Desire to do so — a desire to tear the veil?
My knowledge of these concepts is far more limited than yours, and so I’ll leave it there for now. And I promise to read the autobiography you mentioned. Maybe we can pick up the conversation at a future time. I’d welcome that.
I do want to repeat, though, that this post wasn’t intended as a deep religious discussion, any more than it was intended to be a detailed explanation of cricket or baseball. Our hope was that we’d simply bring up the topic, and do so in a way that enticed people to take a closer look, if they wanted, and maybe even contribute to the exchange. Based on your thoughtful comment, I’d say we succeeded, at least to some degree. So thank you, Damyanti.
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Jac
April 22, 2011
The problem is not with “desire” itself, because as Charles points out, some desires keep us alive and reproducing! The problems come in when our desires are disordered, self centered and destructive. If the end goal for most of us is some kind of heaven, paradise, nirvana or whatever you want to call it, then we need to ask ourselves if the acting out of the desire will lead us to that goal. I’m speaking on the soul level of course, because most of us instinctively know what hurts the body, and we all can plainly see that the body doesn’t last forever.
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bronxboy55
May 1, 2011
Now that I’ve given this more thought, it seems clear to me that the word desire must refer to a certain kind of desire — the destructive kind. We use the words ego and pride in similar ways; all of those things have both positive and negative applications, depending on the circumstances and context. I also wonder how the learning process fits into this discussion. We all make mistakes and try to learn from them; does atonement for a certain action lead us to the same point on the path we would have crossed if we hadn’t committed the act in the first place? Or does the answer to that depend on one’s belief system?
My head hurts.
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Mitchell Allen
April 25, 2011
Oh my, Douglas Adams came back as TWO people!
You and Priya have delivered the most fascinating sermon I have read – ever.
This was extraordinary. Charles, I’m used to your style but, Priya, what a deep and refreshing perspective well you dip your pen in! I’ve read at least one other post of yours, after reading what Val said about you. Now, I’m hooked!
I keep wanting to say that I felt as if you two were conducting your own version of “Rally to Restore Sanity”. Except I know nothing other that endeavor. I do know that you’ve brought to life my second favorite bumper sticker: COEXIST.
Cheers,
Mitch
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bronxboy55
May 1, 2011
“Coexist” is a great one-word conclusion, Mitch. We’re never going to all love each other, at least I hope not. But if we could learn enough about each other to coexist, that would be pretty close to what I imagine utopia to be.
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